Curse

spun ducky · Apr 21, 2007, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

Gaile Pls respond to this:

I know botters are a problem, and well yesterday's loot update was just bad for all players. Todays update is a lot better, and solo farming is better off. The only grunt I have is Doing UW /Fow now. With all most normal drops gone, and the ecto drop rate as it was 1 in several runs. You almost can't break even on merching. So I would suggest the following:

A: Lower the entrance fee for Elite Missions (fow/uw)
B: Leave the normal drop rate for these Elite missions. It's not like you can bot UW/Fow/DOA,Deep or Urgoz.

Also is the drop rate of ecto's in UW in hard mode any better then normal mode?

Thx For listening to most of us. I can finish making my Dervish UW rdy now ^^

I think so far from what i can tell the drop rate of them in hard mode is better however it is a bit tougher. I see no reason to reduce the entrance fee's as you can farm scrolls to enter fow/uw for free now so thing seem pretty decent at the moment.

tda · Apr 21, 2007, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Something I still don't understand, in the update notes here emphasis was still put on botters. So a big part of the reason this change was made in the first place was because botters are making so much money.

Then why not take measures to specifically get rid of these bots..? It would not be difficult to weed them out when you see them advertising to sell gold and running around in key areas like granite citadel etc. You can easily pick them out. Why is it we still see bots all around us? If we can see them surely you can, yet nothing is done?

Some insight from Gaile would be much appreciated on this matter.

Jetdoc · Apr 21, 2007, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Excellent compromise, even though this probably hurts guys like me (people who solo for the challenge but do not farm) the most. When I play the main storyline, I accumulate most of my funds via cash drops and white drops, since I wind up killing everything in my path (which is necessary to complete the mission/quest I'm doing).

Either way, I really don't play to accumulate wealth, so I don't mind the change much. I definitely understand the economic reasons for the change, especially after seeing rare material prices go heywire over the past 24 hours.

FoxBat · Apr 21, 2007, 01:23 PM // 13:23

I think one thing people don't get.

Anet dislikes bots, but thats not all they dislike.

Anet dislikes *inflation*. Bots are just one of the worst causes of this.

They've made farming nerfs that will curtail inflation of the value of gold. Bots and players farming trolls/vermin/smites both cause this inflation, so they both get scaled back. Selling valuable greens and golds to players is like manufacturing a product, wheras selling to the merchant is like minting money. Its obvious which one would cause inflation....

P.S. what this game tells you for the most part? You can't make money in groups. That's not "letting everyone play how they want."

Kaleban · Apr 21, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

I think one thing people don't get.

Anet dislikes bots, but thats not all they dislike.

Anet dislikes *inflation*. Bots are just one of the worst causes of this.

They've made farming nerfs that will curtail inflation of the value of gold. Bots and players farming trolls/vermin/smites both cause this inflation, so they both get scaled back. Selling valuable greens and golds to players is like manufacturing a product, wheras selling to the merchant is like minting money. Its obvious which one would cause inflation....

P.S. what this game tells you for the most part? You can't make money in groups. That's not "letting everyone play how they want."

Wrong, because you don't understand basic logic.

Monster carries X amount of loot.

1 Player kills monster, gets 1X loot.

8 Players kill monster, each player gets X/8 loot.

That's simple math, which allows a player to choose to play in a group and accept that drops will be shared in a party (duh) or take the more difficult road of learning how to solo or small party, thereby increasing the chance they will get the drop (up to 100% when soloing).

A solo farmer cannot hope to compete with bots for inflation. Most solo farmers (like my A/E) focus on uniques and/or rares, which can then be sold to other players. As I and others have done this, supply has gone up, which means prices have come down. Remember when Reaper's Blades were 100k or more? Now you can barely get rid of them for around 30k if you're lucky, and weekends like Green Drop make the prices even lower.

If ANet wants to get rid of bots, increase drop rates for EVERYONE such that it is easier to afford high priced items. If you DEVALUE the super rich items by increasing supply, then there's not as much of a demand for them and they become more accessible, making the need for bots less and less because people no longer need to ebay gold for the things they want.

Again ECON101 is a good prerequisite for commenting on subjects such as this.

2ane · Apr 21, 2007, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

That's simple math, which allows a player to choose to play in a group and accept that drops will be shared in a party (duh) or take the more difficult road of learning how to solo

solo isnt more difficult or challenging, theres no need for tactical thinking or teamplay its just pressing buttons and repeating...

Raaaaa · Apr 21, 2007, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Well one thing that can't be denied to me is the logic and principals behind the update. Sure the bots and pro solo/duo farmers did dominate but now-a-days they're going to be filthy rich whilst the economy tries to recover and the bot farmers are probably going to get more custom anyway

The only thing I disagree with there is the parts about casual farmers, its total bullplop really. Sure I fit into this catagory cause I would grind together 50-75k to buy skills or amours and the like. You could get 5-10k quite easily if you needed the cap sigs or whatever in about an hour or less but now you'll have to party or quest which will only get you a couple of k's in half an hour or so. So we get more golds, for those that hate trading that only means a slim chance at a decent weapon for heros or yourself or 200-400gold. Also the casual farming greens seems ruined too, unless they've tweaked the drop rates now?

FoxBat · Apr 21, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

That's simple math, which allows a player to choose to play in a group and accept that drops will be shared in a party (duh) or take the more difficult road of learning how to solo or small party, thereby increasing the chance they will get the drop (up to 100% when soloing).

If you were any good at soloing, you'd know its vastly more efficient than killing with 8 players in good farming spots.

No-one parties up for money unless its tombs, urgoz/deep, or maybe a DoA group that really knows what they are doing.

Kaleban · Apr 21, 2007, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2ane

solo isnt more difficult or challenging, theres no need for tactical thinking or teamplay its just pressing buttons and repeating...

Same thing could be said of the rest of the game. PUG much?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

If you were any good at soloing, you'd know its vastly more efficient than killing with 8 players in good farming spots.

No-one parties up for money unless its tombs, urgoz/deep, or maybe a DoA group that really knows what they are doing.

I am good at soloing. And whether you want to admit it or not, the JUICY areas to farm can be vastly sped up with a dedicated tank and one or more dedicated damage dealers, which is why team farming is actually quite popular. A 2 or 3 man build is VASTLY more efficient at farming UW for example, whereas it takes a much longer time for a soloer, and is much more risky.

And just like solo farming, I'm not against party farming. I don't care how other people play, as long as its fun for them. Why do you and others seem to want to be the GW Have Fun Our Way Or The Highway Gestapo?

Elnai · Apr 21, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

I'm glad farmers can farm again, but i'm pissed that my drops while vanquishing and shit in hard mode suck as much as before.

Perhaps loot should still be scaled in hard mode? :S

KANE OG · Apr 21, 2007, 02:53 PM // 14:53

I form a PARTY every time I solo farm, a PARTY of one. If I solo a mission, before I enter it, GW gives me a warning that my PARTY may be too small. When I'm out soloing, my name appears in the PARTY box.

Now unless things drastically change, I'm going to have a big LoTR PARTY, and a GW funeral to go along with it.

Flame here:

KANE

garethporlest18 · Apr 21, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnai

I'm glad farmers can farm again, but i'm pissed that my drops while vanquishing and shit in hard mode suck as much as before.

Perhaps loot should still be scaled in hard mode? :S

You're just unlucky man, my group got 8 rares tonight as drops. Plus 3 lockpicks. Well it was just me and my girl and heros. I've gotten over 15 rares and 5 lockpicks in the past day, so I don't think it's been that bad.

BuD · Apr 21, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

I like that A-Net is trying to do something agianst the pro bot farmers, however I feel this is a step in the wrong direction. Materials & Rare Materials are still affected by loot scaling (iron, steel, fur, tanned hide squares, scales etc.) The prices on these materials are starting to rise already. Before this loot scaling if someone needed alot of Iron or other mentioned materials for new armor, they could just go do a few runs in a certain area that dropped the loot they needed to salvage into the materials. Now that these are scaled back, it will take alot longer to get this loot to be salvaged into the materials they need, this will also drive the cost of materials up at the traders. Last night Iron was 10 for 200g...scales were 10 for 180g. Ive been playing for almost 2 years and have never seen Iron cost more than Scales. This could be the result of the release of new 15k Knights Armor requiring 400 iron, but I think we will see Materials & Rare Materials rise in price as well, as they will be harder to come by.

TJ72's idea about the Crystal Desert Teleports to enter an area was great, maybe something like this could be implemented to stop gold farming.

Evenstar · Apr 21, 2007, 04:09 PM // 16:09

one question:how can i get rare items and then sell them if i cant farm them?

Amy Awien · Apr 21, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

What's the problem? Nothing changes for solo-farmers.

Drops scale up with party size, from what I read from Gaile a party of 8 will have a total (added) drop rate of 4 times solo.

So, assume D is the base dropvalue for a solo-farmer before the update. A party of 8 would share this value, meaning every individual player received D/8.

After the update the solo-farmer will still get D, but now a party of 8 will see 4*D dropping, so now each player get D/2.

What is the problem?

Dylananimus · Apr 21, 2007, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Hmm, so they think more 'rare' drops will keep the 'normal' players in loot because they can sell them on.

But...how will they sell them on if nobody has the money to buy them? And they can't make that money to buy the item for sale, because they themselves can't sell theirs forward, or make loot from trash drops.

I may get a max gold Sword of wonderfulness, but who is going to be able to buy it once they've bought their armor, their dye, their runes, their weapons, runes and wepaons for their heros, etc?

Sure, stop the gold sellers accumulating lotsa gold to sell, but you've also stopped people being able to actually buy the good stuff that you've put in place to drop more often.

Venom4112 · Apr 21, 2007, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Hello. First off, I would like to say thank you to Anet for listening to us and implementing at least half of what we said in other threads. However, as many of you know, the new "unnerf" only applies only to golds, greens, rare materials, scrolls, dyes and tomes. But, as many people who farm know, white drops also make up a large amount of the profit of a run. This especially applies to farming areas like Trolls and Hydras, where golds do occasionally drop but selling the whites and purples makes most of the money. Underworld farmers are also greatly affected by this, as any UW farmer has stacks of Demonic Remains and Phantom Residues lying around totaling well over 40k ^.^.
I don't want people to think I'm not happy over this new update, but it is simply not enough. It may be for people on EU servers who farm UW all day, but for us farming hydras and trolls to buy that set of 15k, it simply is not cutting it.
Ideas? Thoughts?

klrk · Apr 21, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

i still got nothing drops although i only tried 3 times a place to test if its true
and dunno if i'm unlucky or something
my uw loots (always no ectos for me),are always less than 1k and i'm losing money going into uw , its my situation , i guess

Ravengar Silvertree · Apr 21, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

After reading the first page of posts, I feel the need to clarify some things and make some comments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

So, what does loot scaling affect then?

Loot scaling effects the drop rate of common items, uncommon items, gold, and common materials.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KANE OG

And because solo farmers were motivated to farm only certain specific groups of easily exploitable monsters, they could often generate not just eight times as much, but ten or twenty times as much loot per hour as everyone else.

Excuse me? As everyone else? EVERYONE ELSE CAN SOLO FARM TOO! This arguement makes no sense, and further shows your inept ability to manage the game.

Your reasoning falls short, you've allowed the bots to run rampant and done nothing but buff them by removing the anti farm code. Items will become much more expensive, and the casual player (of which I am one who happens to love solo farming) has just gotten stabbed in the back.

Congrats on becoming a politician Gaile. Truly, I congratulate you. You're a credit to your bosses.

KANE

Everyone CAN solo farm, not everyone wants to. Your comment seems to suggest that just because everyone can solo people that do not want to should be forced to farm to make money. Bots are now less rampant than ever before. Bots run easy things like Minotaurs in Elona's reach, get white drops and gold, merchant, repeat. Now they get 1/8th drops while everyone else is unaffected (Unless you farm like a bot).

You know, I wish people would quit rage posting. It's really annoying, if you have a complaint you can say it without insulting ANET.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

Ok I just noticed gold items not affected by the loot scaling so I also ask what exacty IS affected?

I know the goal was to limit gold currency influx but if people can just sell the gold items and ectos, doesnt that defeat the purpose?

The purpose was to limit the actual amount of new gold coins coming into the economy and causing inflation due to bots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elfmoogle

That clarifies things a bit, but one thing I'd like to know is how does this work for people who don't have access to hard mode but do some more advanced farming in normal mode? People who have had the game for a while, but haven't finished, and aren't going to rush to beat one of the campaigns just to reap these "benefits" that have suddenly come up.

When I solo'd the trolls in Talus Chute in normal mode, I killed about 10 trolls and got 1 drop. Normally I'd get something from each troll, even if it was just a troll tusk. And wandering around doing quests and missions in Nightfall, I got gold, sporadically, but I was carrying my henchies and heroes with me. The only non-monetary drops I got were salvageables. I'm not really seeing the better drops here..

It works exactly like they say it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANET

* People who were advanced solo farmers and who were earning vastly more money through solo farming than through playing the game normally will see the full effect of loot scaling. They will earn less gold and common loot from solo farming than they did in the past. The loot scaling for gold and common loot is not linear with the number of players in the party, and it includes an element of randomness, so while the difference is not easy to quantify, it is by no means a factor of eight. Advanced solo farmers may now earn about twice as much gold and common loot from farming solo as they would if they farmed in a party. While gold and common loot are thus reduced for these players by loot scaling, certain other types of loot are completely unaffected. For example, Skill Tomes are completely unaffected by loot scaling, so they still drop eight times as frequently for solo farmers than they do for people who play in parties. Thus, advanced solo farmers will find that certain types of farming are still extremely productive for them, but they may have to change what and where they farm if they want to earn as much money as they did before.

Trolls aren't advanced farming, they're a bot run. Since they drop all whites/gold you aren't going to get anything from them solo. You need to farm places with good gold/other unaffected drops to make money now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sickkk

so farmers are still getting 8x amount of golds and greens?
that doesnt really help. since alot of there money comes from that.

The aim isn't to limit solo farmers, it's to limit bots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

so...in a nutshell, farming gold itself was the target of the nerf, and is supposedly offset by the dropping of better loot that can be sold to other players? that's so assbackwards i don't even know where to start.

a) the players need gold to buy the items, which they now have less of. this update makes it so the solo farmer must make their cash from selling to other players, rather than remaining self-sufficient. since when is being self-sufficient a bad thing?

Currently, with bots running like crazy despite repeated nerfs, gold is accumulating in surplus, and would drive up the price of items to astronomical levels through inflation. The update simply aims to balance the gold coming into the game with the gold leaving the game through money sinks. Gold is only a means of representing relative value, and a common trade medium. If you trade your axe for 30k, then trade that 30k for a sword, no money ever left the sytem, it stayed balanced. You have to look at the big picture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

This is going to encourage botting. Harder to get money=more ebayers. Plus, as I think anet saw with the last attempt at killing bots, the bots will find a way around it. They will either continue solo farming, or they will start running teams of bots. You can't kill the chinese farmers, you can kill the casual player.

Team of 8 = 1/8th drops, team of 1 = 1/8th drops. Lose - lose situation for the Chinese.

For everyone crying about bad drops: If your going to solo get some skill and solo something worth it instead of trolls. As soon as HM came out (BEFORE THE LOOT SCALING EXCEPTIONS) I found a nice spot in Hard Mode to solo and got 12 golds + 2 Elite Tomes + 4 Lockpicks + 3 Major Vigors in 3 hours.

Does anyone else remember the original AOE nerf were every ele in the game went "OMGWTF/RAGEQUIT" and People dumped Rago's staffs for 10k? People need to learn to chill and adapt to changes, a static game is a boring game.

For the record, yes, Guild Wars has been in desperate need of a trade system since the start, and moreso now.

Lastly - Thank you ANET for the best update I've seen since I started playing two years ago.

Kaleban · Apr 21, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

So, assume D is the base dropvalue for a solo-farmer before the update. A party of 8 would share this value, meaning every individual player received D/8.
What is the problem?

The problem is you're assuming the drop rate is calculated from the solo farming point of view.

As far as I can tell, its not now, whereas it may have been pre-update.

Loot doesn't scale up to a party of 8, 8 is the baseline by which smaller parties loot drops WERE judged by.

So now, any player is ALWAYS getting D drops. The problem is D is calculated with a baseline party size of 8, even if you're soloing, you now have a "virtual" party of 8 along with you.

So now, instead of hench/heros stealing drops, its the ghosts of rationality and logic.